Curse

maxxfury · Jan 07, 2011, 05:15 PM // 17:15

There is a quote in the paragon sections regarding Barrage, ias and your dps...

This brings me to my points, mainly im curious about the animation frames that cancel when barragin if you dont cancel the attacks....I was under the impression that, the lost animation frames dont actually reduce your dps?! or do they?....

*currently dont have any gw ranger access to check, and its been a while since i played properly :P....so someone with a definite answer?

Artisan Archer · Jan 07, 2011, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Paragons are like drunks, they run around and shout at strangers, don't believe anything they say.

IAS will always improve your DPS. I dunno what that particular paragon was thinking.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2011, 06:59 PM // 18:59

If you are referring to my statement that good ranger IAS lowers your damage, I meant that the good ranger IAS skills preclude the usage of Barrage. That is what lowers your damage, because taking either Expert's Dexterity or Rapid Fire means you can't use Barrage, and an IAS + non-Barrage build is worse damage-wise than a standard Barrage build. There are other IAS options for rangers (especially PvE skills), but they also force a sub-optimal skill or attribute allocation in a similar fashion.

As for IAS decreasing your attack rate with Barrage, no that is not true. However, Barrage DOES limit that maximum rate at which you can attack to about 2.4ish seconds per attack. This means that IAS along with Barrage doesn't increase your damage unless you are taking a hornbow for the minor armor penetration advantage. Certainly not worth the skill slot, given the enemy armor levels in PvE the hornbow might give +2 damage at best.

Haggis of Doom · Jan 07, 2011, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

There are other IAS options for rangers (especially PvE skills), but they also force a sub-optimal skill or attribute allocation in a similar fashion.

NRA: IAS + no need to swap from Vampiric between battles (yes I'm kinda lazy ^^)

Comfort Animal: free tank + free physical packets. Give it 3+1 BM and go

Nothing sub-optimal here

And tbh, on what are you spending your skill slots as a Barrager anyways? There's so much loose slots in the build that I sometimes run a hybrid.

Also, it's so good that Warriors have tried to replicate it with Battle Rage + NRA + adrenal skills. I didn't like that particular combo too much however

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

However, Barrage DOES limit that maximum rate at which you can attack to about 2.4ish seconds per attack. This means that IAS along with Barrage doesn't increase your damage unless you are taking a hornbow for the minor armor penetration advantage.

Agreed on the Hornbow, but have you actually run tests of what you claim?

In this thread, tests were done without IAS and the flatbows/shortbows came on top, which to me seems that at the very least, longbows/recurvebows should perform better with an IAS than without.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

NRA: IAS + no need to swap from Vampiric between battles (yes I'm kinda lazy ^^)

Comfort Animal: free tank + free physical packets. Give it 3+1 BM and go

Nothing sub-optimal here

And tbh, on what are you spending your skill slots as a Barrager anyways? There's so much loose slots in the build that I sometimes run a hybrid.

Also, it's so good that Warriors have tried to replicate it with Battle Rage + NRA + adrenal skills. I didn't like that particular combo too much however

Losing a PvE skill slot. Take your pick of SY/BUH/EBSoH instead, make a better build from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Agreed on the Hornbow, but have you actually run tests of what you claim?

In this thread, tests were done without IAS and the flatbows/shortbows came on top, which to me seems that at the very least, longbows/recurvebows should perform better with an IAS than without.

Ahh, OK. I barrage with a flatbow or shortbow anyway, so I wasn't entirely sure how much better a flatbow is than a longbow. In a quick test I was able to get off 2 more barrages in a minute using IAS with a longbow (27 vs 25). But if that means anything, its that IAS is still useless and you should just be using a flatbow/shortbow. Even if you aren't, the lack of focused attribute distribution or a skill slot loss is most assuredly more important.

Balky · Jan 07, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Experts Dexterity is a better option imo, no you can`t use barrage if you take it, you can use volley though

It all comes down to damage over time V a crapload of damage right off, personally i`d rather smack my target hard , which is why i use a 20/20 Hornbow with a Marks grip and S & H inscrip

With your marksmanship running at 18 and occasionally 19 ( without using a consumable which can take it to 19 spiking to 20 , 10 - 30 % ap the refire rate of the Hornbow matters far less.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2011, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Experts Dexterity is a better option imo, no you can`t use barrage if you take it, you can use volley though

It all comes down to damage over time V a crapload of damage right off, personally i`d rather smack my target hard , which is why i use a 20/20 Hornbow with a Marks grip and S & H inscrip

With your marksmanship running at 18 and occasionally 19 ( without using a consumable which can take it to 19 spiking to 20 , 10 - 30 % ap the refire rate of the Hornbow matters far less.

If you want pure damage then you are doing so many things wrong I almost don't know where to begin...

Volley instead of Barrage means you lower your damage per shot 20 -> 12. You can't use Volley every shot, so you only get the +12 half the time. AoE-wise, using Volley less means you shoot less arrows; whereas Barrage maximizes the effect of +damage per shot modifiers. Then in the unlikely event that more then 3 enemies are together, Barrage obviously hits more of them.

20/20 Hornbow with Marksman's grip... LOL. All of those are horrible for damage (except the hornbow, but thats seperately horrible because you have to take Expert's Dexterity to make it shoot fast. I suspect other bows would still be better timing-wise but I don't use Volley because its bad). First off, 20% penetration. Given a base bow damage of about 30 you gain about 6 damage (this is approximately constant for the range of all armor levels encountered in PvE), at a 20% chance. This gives 1.2 damage per shot, which is wholly inferior to vampiric's 5 damage per shot. As for Marksmanship... its a 20% chance of +0 damage, since volley has the same damage from r18 to r19. Even with consumables its only +1 damage, for an average of +.2 damage per shot. The only thing not wrong with your weapon is the 15^50 inscription.

reaper with no name · Jan 07, 2011, 09:00 PM // 21:00

IAS does help a Barrager, but not as much as one would expect.

You see, there are two limiting factors on how often you can Barrage:
1) The time it takes to get off the Barrage
2) Barrage's recharge time

IAS does not affect 2), but it does affect 1). You'll notice that you cut off an autoattack for the Barrage, though. The question is: is it worth a skill slot? Obviously, the answer depends on your build and how many free slots it has.

For the record, I use Frenzy with Barrage. Since no one attacks me anyway (even after I use SY

), it works very well.

Haggis of Doom · Jan 07, 2011, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Losing a PvE skill slot. Take your pick of SY/BUH/EBSoH instead, make a better build from that.

Well, which PvE skills to bring is up to debate ofc, but a good IAS is always a solid choice imo. Assassins have made CA a staple in their builds, even when they're JS FF DBing for which IAS does little. The armor is very sweet, but if armor is what they wanted, there are better options (namely 'IaU!', which is unstrippable, prevents KDs and Cripple, and stacks beyond +armor limit for the cost of 2/3 uptime without Enduring Harmony from a hero).

I personally do not bring 'BuH!' on a Barrager: more than half of my damage is not buffed (Splinter, Vamp, sometimes MoP/Barbs). This means it's a less than 12.5% buff even if you manage to make it sustainable; and if you ball your mobs up for Barrage, chances are there are not 2 party members under 50% nor are there any Spirits being attacked. But I've never bothered trying to take advantage of 'BuH!' as a Barrager so I may be missing something

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

In a quick test I was able to get off 2 more barrages in a minute using IAS with a longbow (27 vs 25). But if that means anything, its that IAS is still useless and you should just be using a flatbow/shortbow.

Hmm, did flatbows/shotbows benefit from the IAS at all in your test?

Also, don't look at it as 27 hits vs 25; rather, would the IAS have granted you 5 hits instead of 4 on a perfectly balled mob? Or 3 hits instead of 2? Because of the nature of Barrage's usage, sustainable DPS figures aren't what we are after

Sadly there is no easy way to prove/disprove whether IAS gives you 1 more Barrage in, what I do is thus bring it and forget it. By the same logic, foregoing IAS is just as valid if you're not wasting the skill slot.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Well, which PvE skills to bring is up to debate ofc, but a good IAS is always a solid choice imo. Assassins have made CA a staple in their builds, even when they're JS FF DBing for which IAS does little. The armor is very sweet, but if armor is what they wanted, there are better options (namely 'IaU!', which is unstrippable, prevents KDs and Cripple, and stacks beyond +armor limit for the cost of 2/3 uptime without Enduring Harmony from a hero).

I personally do not bring 'BuH!' on a Barrager: more than half of my damage is not buffed (Splinter, Vamp, sometimes MoP/Barbs). This means it's a less than 12.5% buff even if you manage to make it sustainable; and if you ball your mobs up for Barrage, chances are there are not 2 party members under 50% nor are there any Spirits being attacked. But I've never bothered trying to take advantage of 'BuH!' as a Barrager so I may be missing something

BUH actually does buff ALL (non life-stealing) damage. It buffs the bow's base damage. It buffs the Barrage bonus damage. It buffs the splinter weapon damage. It buffs Barbs. It will buff EBSoH's buff. Its ridiculously good. The only thing I don't think it buffs is MoP, since the necromancer sees those numbers. Its possible that if the necro runs BUH MoP will be buffed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Hmm, did flatbows/shotbows benefit from the IAS at all in your test?

Also, don't look at it as 27 hits vs 25; rather, would the IAS have granted you 5 hits instead of 4 on a perfectly balled mob? Or 3 hits instead of 2? Because of the nature of Barrage's usage, sustainable DPS figures aren't what we are after

Sadly there is no easy way to prove/disprove whether IAS gives you 1 more Barrage in, what I do is thus bring it and forget it. By the same logic, foregoing IAS is just as valid if you're not wasting the skill slot.

Flatbows/Shortbows had no advantage running IAS that I could discern. My test was pretty fail-proof; I had a macro spam Barrage 100 times a second so that any variation in button mashing speed wouldn't come up, and both IAS and non-IAS hit their 25th shot just at 1 minute. So if the minute chance of 1 more hit because you have .1s faster barrage is that important, go ahead and use a flatbow/shortbow and save yourself the skill slot.

The fire rate is hard-capped at Barrage's recharge rate, nothing short of >50% increased skill recharge will increase your speed. If in fact you do get >50% faster recharge Barrage will recharge instantly (game rounds down to nearest second) and IAS would help you spam it as fast as your bow could shoot normally. Guild Wars actually used to round exactly 50% faster skill recharge down to 0s, which meant you could take QZ and spam barrage under IAS as fast as a warrior could swing his sword. Was pretty badass, but no longer possible.

maxxfury · Jan 07, 2011, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

If you are referring to my statement

Yup ^ i wanted to keep the para thread clean of OT stuffs, and bring it home to the Ranger section ^^

Mainly i was curious about the canceled animations you get when you run an ias with a non-hornybow

And if they cost you in the long run or not in anyway

And, i run frenzy as my ias..when barraging :P Especially if im the only one in the team with SY, as ill have a 100% uptime of PS on me at the minimum been the squishiest..and a likely SB if i come under attack &^

*rephrased OP for clarity as it didnt read quite how i intended in a rush to work!

reaper with no name · Jan 08, 2011, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

BUH actually does buff ALL (non life-stealing) damage. It buffs the bow's base damage. It buffs the Barrage bonus damage. It buffs the splinter weapon damage. It buffs Barbs. It will buff EBSoH's buff. Its ridiculously good. The only thing I don't think it buffs is MoP, since the necromancer sees those numbers. Its possible that if the necro runs BUH MoP will be buffed.

Flatbows/Shortbows had no advantage running IAS that I could discern. My test was pretty fail-proof; I had a macro spam Barrage 100 times a second so that any variation in button mashing speed wouldn't come up, and both IAS and non-IAS hit their 25th shot just at 1 minute. So if the minute chance of 1 more hit because you have .1s faster barrage is that important, go ahead and use a flatbow/shortbow and save yourself the skill slot.

The fire rate is hard-capped at Barrage's recharge rate, nothing short of >50% increased skill recharge will increase your speed. If in fact you do get >50% faster recharge Barrage will recharge instantly (game rounds down to nearest second) and IAS would help you spam it as fast as your bow could shoot normally. Guild Wars actually used to round exactly 50% faster skill recharge down to 0s, which meant you could take QZ and spam barrage under IAS as fast as a warrior could swing his sword. Was pretty badass, but no longer possible.

Something seems fishy there. Barrage doesn't start recharging until after the attack is completed, correct? Therefore, the faster one fires their barrage, the more barrages they should be able to get within a given time period.

MisterB · Jan 08, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Its possible that if the necro runs BUH MoP will be buffed.

Yes, that is correct. BUH buffs damage from the player who uses it, but it has no effect on skills you don't use.

Kunder · Jan 08, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Something seems fishy there. Barrage doesn't start recharging until after the attack is completed, correct? Therefore, the faster one fires their barrage, the more barrages they should be able to get within a given time period.

As is explained in the link Haggis gave (scroll down), the time it takes to draw the arrow is not affected by IAS. IAS decreases the tail end of the shot where the ranger's Barrage is already recharging.

Mathematically, the timeline looks like this:
-------- Attack target
1.2s bow draw time. The only way to reduce this is to use a skill with an activation time
--------- Arrow is let go, Barrage starts recharging
Bow-dependent wait time until next attack (.8s/1.2s/1.5s). If IAS is in effect, this section is shortened. 33% IAS will change this to (.13s/.38s/.58s), 25% IAS gets (.3s/.6s/.82s), 15% IAS gets (.5s/.84s/1.095s).
--------- Ready for next attack

Note that IAS affects the overall bow attack time normally (33% IAS = attack time 33% shorter), but the decrease is taking off the tail end of the attack. The delay times are NOT all uniformly shortened.

The goal for maximum barrage speed is to get the second wait period to be 1s or below. Going below doesn't hurt you, but doing so just causes the animation canceling while not helping in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Yes, that is correct. BUH buffs damage from the player who uses it, but it has no effect on skills you don't use.

It would probably be more concise to say that it buffs any damage number the player sees, with the exception of of damage that you see from pets/minions/spirits. Other players can still cast skills on you and BUH buffs that if you are the one getting credit for the damage.

maxxfury · Jan 08, 2011, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Note that IAS affects the overall bow attack time normally (33% IAS = attack time 33% shorter), but the decrease is taking off the tail end of the attack. The delay times are NOT all uniformly shortened.

The goal for maximum barrage speed is to get the second wait period to be 1s or below. Going below doesn't hurt you, but doing so just causes the animation canceling while not helping in any way.

Arhhh that makes a little more sense! i thought that was really only the case with the bow attacks with "activation time"... like when they *messed around* with sundering/pene shot.... as before they tweaked them, the effect of an ias was more substantial!!

And the Canceled animation for the normal shot after barrage with an ias? purely aesthetic? and doesn't actually interfere with the normal cycle? im sure i used to hit my remapped cancel key after every barrage shot so i didnt see the half animation...

reaper with no name · Jan 08, 2011, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

As is explained in the link Haggis gave (scroll down), the time it takes to draw the arrow is not affected by IAS. IAS decreases the tail end of the shot where the ranger's Barrage is already recharging.

Mathematically, the timeline looks like this:
-------- Attack target
1.2s bow draw time. The only way to reduce this is to use a skill with an activation time
--------- Arrow is let go, Barrage starts recharging
Bow-dependent wait time until next attack (.8s/1.2s/1.5s). If IAS is in effect, this section is shortened. 33% IAS will change this to (.13s/.38s/.58s), 25% IAS gets (.3s/.6s/.82s), 15% IAS gets (.5s/.84s/1.095s).
--------- Ready for next attack

Note that IAS affects the overall bow attack time normally (33% IAS = attack time 33% shorter), but the decrease is taking off the tail end of the attack. The delay times are NOT all uniformly shortened.

The goal for maximum barrage speed is to get the second wait period to be 1s or below. Going below doesn't hurt you, but doing so just causes the animation canceling while not helping in any way.

It would probably be more concise to say that it buffs any damage number the player sees, with the exception of of damage that you see from pets/minions/spirits. Other players can still cast skills on you and BUH buffs that if you are the one getting credit for the damage.

Ok then, no more Frenzy for me.

Xiaquin · Jan 08, 2011, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Losing a PvE skill slot. Take your pick of SY/BUH/EBSoH instead, make a better build from that.

I've never liked BUH, it's duration makes it a skill of opportunity. I tend to prefer EVAS for aggro, which can help set up Barrage. Technobabble is useful, and of course Pain Inverter is always handy and gives you some power when AoE diffuses.

As for IAS, it helps, but I don't bring it just to have it. I'll bring LR but mainly for defense. I don't bring NRA with Barrage, doesn't seem to be worth the upkeep.

Kunder · Jan 08, 2011, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

And the Canceled animation for the normal shot after barrage with an ias? purely aesthetic? and doesn't actually interfere with the normal cycle? im sure i used to hit my remapped cancel key after every barrage shot so i didnt see the half animation...

Yeah, the canceled attack animation does not slow you down. However, be careful of accidentally letting the normal attack go through, then your barrage is slowed obviously. This would only really be a problem if you were using 33% IAS with a fast firing bow, in which case NOT hammering barrage as fast as possible leads to a lower barrage speed (though higher single target attack speed) because you aren't canceling the standard attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I've never liked BUH, it's duration makes it a skill of opportunity. I tend to prefer EVAS for aggro, which can help set up Barrage. Technobabble is useful, and of course Pain Inverter is always handy and gives you some power when AoE diffuses.

Yeah, those PvE skills are all quite good. I was simply picking BUH because it give the best damage increase and this thread is specifically about high damage. Not to mention that the first 10s of battle are generally the most important and is where the most damage is dealt out; the next 10-15s are just mopping up enemies, so BUH still earns its place. And as a preemptive defense against someone pointing out that SY doesn't increase damage, SY is just too damn good for any sane person to leave off a bar that gets so much unused adrenaline

Quote:

As for IAS, it helps, but I don't bring it just to have it. I'll bring LR but mainly for defense. I don't bring NRA with Barrage, doesn't seem to be worth the upkeep.

NRA is just a bad joke. "Let's make a skill that requires high expertise to use because of the high cost, but lets also force players to bring a pet so they need to divert half of their Expertise points to Beast Mastery to take advantage of the skill." Impeccable logic there, Anet.

Rites · Jan 08, 2011, 04:15 AM // 04:15

hmmm

@13 expertise ( i think thats what my ranger has) NRA costs 8e
@9 BM scavenger strike gives 10e
a zealous bowstring + volley or barrage on 2-3 mobs = 2-3e return (thinking HM by the way, so only like 1 or 2 volley/barrages unless you have a good baller)

but seriously, how is that bad? the only thing is now you have to choose either even marks and WS or just choose 1 line instead of both (most just stick with marks if they are barraging anyway)

OR you culd just stick with lightning reflexes as your IAS, but personally i don't like the recharge or duration of that skill, besides i love my pets

Kunder · Jan 08, 2011, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

hmmm

@13 expertise ( i think thats what my ranger has) NRA costs 8e
@9 BM scavenger strike gives 10e
a zealous bowstring + volley or barrage on 2-3 mobs = 2-3e return (thinking HM by the way, so only like 1 or 2 volley/barrages unless you have a good baller)

but seriously, how is that bad? the only thing is now you have to choose either even marks and WS or just choose 1 line instead of both (most just stick with marks if they are barraging anyway)

OR you culd just stick with lightning reflexes as your IAS, but personally i don't like the recharge or duration of that skill, besides i love my pets

Pets as a rule are underpowered overall.

Using less than 12 BM means your pet damage is reduced drastically. 9 BM means your pet is something like 30% weaker damage-wise. Since your other attribute is at best around 10-11, you are losing damage on that as well compared to a base r12. Seeing as the point of IAS is to gain damage, this lowers the value of your IAS significantly.

Zealous + Barrage/Volley doesn't return energy, at best you break even.

IAS, as we have already proven, is useless with barrage in the first place. Volley OTOH is just a bad skill overall. With your energy problems you are pretty much locked into Barrage anyway because the few other half-decent Ranger elites cost way too much energy to use regularly.

To top it off, you are using up a PvE slot. You can put something much better in there.